Sunday, February 3, 2013

A Balancing Act: part deux


So after last weeks article on balancing out a list, I decided to list to the feed back. In general, the feedback was not good. It went something along the lines of "You haven't fixed the problem. This still looks like something I wouldn't want to play against. Go die in a fire." That was paraphrased of course. So I have decided to address some of the issues people were having. Some of these will come from Frontlinegaming while Others will come from the Lesserofallevils.

#1 Neverness- Neverness brought up an issue with having two Wraithlords and 4 units of Bladestorming Dire Avengers.  It didn't seem like much at the time as I have never even seen these units in action. Than I got to think about it. There was no balance in this. It literally was rock paper scissors. Sure, it would hurt alot of people, but with a counter, it is game over. The counter part isn;t even what bother me. What bothers me is the fact that if it counters you, you are in for the most boring game ever.  The thing I hated about flyers was that often people needed six's to hit them. So what did I do? I throw out a unit that can't be hurt by anything unless it is S5 or better. Gonna change that one.

#2 Hive Angel- Hive Angel went on a huge long rant about how I was missing the point. He said that I needed more diversity. I "only" had six different unit types in a 1500 point list. He thought that this resulted in a list that was far to narrow and not as diverse as it needed to be. The new list that I put up wasn't better but in fact worse. I took one of the most diverse armies in the game and narrowed them down to a handful of choices that got spammed.  I plan to try and run more different units. I still think I have been in the mind set of the old necron codex where at 1500 points, I had 3 unit types. My 2250 tournament list fit on a single que card. My friend's Wolf lord had more options than my entire army had. So I have decided to include allies in the army as this will help diversify the army as well as jump up the points a little bit. Necrons are really expensive  at times point wise. Also, the only thing I could think of when I read your giant rant about diversity was this.

#3 Reecius- Reecius suggested something I hadn't thought of. Since balance at times can be subjective, allow the opponent to decide what they want to play against. Bring multiple lists. This way, everyone knows what they are getting in their game. If someone brings a soft list and wants to play a softer list, have one in the options. It is sort of a pick your own poison sort of affair. Even if this isn't a permanent thing to do, it will help me learn what people want to play against and allow me to build something that both myself and my opponent will enjoy playing. Proof that every little idea helps. Could make a huge difference in the future and not just a difference now.

#4 Jgrand- Jgrand made the point that balance is often subjective. He than went on to tell the simple truth about the list I put up. The point of what he was saying that at some point you have to say enough. Have fun, don't be a dick, relax, and most games will be fun. Some people may not want to face tough lists, but you gotta draw the line somewhere. This reaffirms the idea of bringing multiple lists, but it also suggest that just trying to have fun is the key to a balanced list. Sure, you can gimp the crap out of what you do, but if I write a list in order to gimp myself, than I honestly haven't addressed the problem.

#5 Colddawn- His comment was pretty to the point. The Necron codex is broken but beatable and writing a Spam list made no since for balances.. While the spammy part was right, the Necron codex part is something I don't completely agree on. It confirms for me that the idea of balance is subjective. The Necron book is good, but not broken. Sure, some things may be broken, but the whole book isn't that broken.

So after all this, what have I done? I said screw it and wrote something using the units I feel are the most fun while maintaining a coherent force. I wanted every aspect of the game and decided to bring my grey tide Orks out of the closet. at 1850, this should be relatively balanced. It must be able to shoot, assault, be rather mobile, have psykers, and be diverse all while being fun for me to play. Every FoC slot is represented save elite. I decided against it for the sake of keeping out some of the cheese. Tell me what yall think.

Primary detachment

HQ

Overlord with phase shifter, semp weave, warscythe, mind shackle scarabs (warlord)

cryptek of destruction with solar pulse

troops

9 warriors in ghost ark

9 warriors in ghost ark

heavy

doomsday arks

doomsday arks

allies detatchment

HQ

Old Zogwort

troops

20 slugga boys with nob with Pk, bosspole

20 slugga boys with nob with Pk, bosspole

Fast attack

15 storm boys with nob with PK bosspole

Heavy

Looted Boomgun with hard case




24 comments:

  1. I'll have to think on your Orks. They are a lot of fun to play with (and against) have all kinds of diverse surprises behind their backs. Old Zogwart is one that I have been wanting to try out for some time now. So the orks seem fine, not sure about how the balance tips in conjunction with the Necrons though...

    Back to your Eldar list, and I don't know the points difference here, but look into a squadron of War Walkers vs. Wraithlords. They are tough, but not frustratingly so like the Wraithlords, more tactically reliable, and can bring some impressive firepower. I think they are more fun to play against and still offer a challenge. Enjoy that thought. :)

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    1. Actually, the warwalkers are the cheeese from what I hear. Guide those 18 scatter laser shots a turn and they will wreck most vehicles av 12 and down and shred infantry like no ones business. The wraithlords do seem frustraiting too though

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  2. Guide and Doom can make anything in the entire Codex cheesey.

    The Eldar have been Cheesey since 1st edition. I am sure it was reaction to Eldar play styles in 2nd edition that the term 'cheese' came to exist in wargaming in the first place! LOL

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    1. I don't think it makes the whole codex cheesy, but anything withbweight of fire will hurt people (which is half the codex)

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  3. So...this 'fun list to play against' has mind shackle scarabs in the first entry, hmmm...

    Also, war walkers die as soon as they draw fire, which given their potential, will be almost immediate, however unlike wraithlords, they can't just shrug most of it off as they're as fragile as the standard IG sentinel for the most part.

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    1. Mind shackle scarabs are the only way to make the lord combat viable. Otherwise, the WS 4 I 2 A3 character will get rolled by a lot of characters

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    2. lol, my IG & Eldar HQ choices have no sympathy for you...

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    3. But those HQ slots have something that helps the army. My guy is supposed to be the combat guy.

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  4. Yes well, when the CSM lord is required to challenge my Farseer, Autarch or IG whatever, I'll try to remember that they're both 'combat viable' & help the army as they're getting shredded.

    Personally I wish we had another cron player around to sick their mind shackle scarabs on you & let you feel the joys of having your own unit kill itself, just to see how much 'fun' that really is...(ooh, and he ought to have 3 flyers too because they suck right?).

    ...snicker...

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    1. I never understood why we don't have more than 1 necron player. I would gladly play them. as for three flyers sucking, 505 points of flyers killed 3 land speeders last game. probably the most kills they have so far. I wouldnt mind facing a few flyers.

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    2. We did have a 2nd 'Cron player. Right up to the point where I sold them for my soul back... OK, it was the IOU in place of my soul. But I got it back dammit!

      When I was playing Necrons I didn't have a dozen fliers or use mind shackle scarabs, etc... I ran almost exclusively a footcron list. Everybody bitched that they get back up after they have rightfully been killed. True they do stand back up sometimes. Some are going to bitch no matter what. I wasn't bitching that I didn't have power armor, or terminator armor, etc. It is fair. Why? Because there are viable ways to counter power armor, terminator armor, and reanimation protocol. What isn't fair is having a flier troop transport that you can take 6+ of (up to 6 in troops, 3 elites*, etc) when only some codex have fliers of their own (limited to 3 or less) which is their only anti-flier solution**. It's like fighting against tanks when your codex has no anti tank weapons.

      While I don't use mind shackle scarabs I can't in all honesty say they are over the top cheese. Spammed? Yes, cheese. One? Probably not. Much as I would have to say the same for Manticors. One? Ouch. Fine, but ouch. Three?!? Time to whip out the Brie.

      * If memory serves, since I don't have the codex any more.

      ** During a recent tournament I played in I faced a single flier in two different games. As I had not taken a flier I had no "real" viable way to address it. 20+- Dark Lances a turn and I couldn't take it down. And there is my cheese 20+- lances in a 1500 point list.

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  5. If I may. There is nothing Cheese about War Walkers. In fact the Edlar Heavy Support Slots are overpopulated with good choices. Sure can Outflanking War Walkers with Scatter Lasers and guide smash things?

    Yes, but its not like these things are cheap and are not durable at all. First off they are only AV10, with 2 Hull Points. Secondly a unit of Eldar War Walkers x3, with Scatter Lasers is going to run you 180 points. Puts out alot of fire power, yes. But staying power? No. And not to mention your taking up a Heavy Support Slot, which is populated by the likes of Wraithlords, Fire Prisms (which you need 2 of to be effective) and the ever durable Falcon.


    Edlar are not a good choice to label cheese at, they pay a premium for all their transports, which are all without fire points and lack a dedicated assault tank for their assault units. All of their scoring units minus guardians (who's value is questionable) are all expensive. And do not forget, standard ELDAR Bs is 3, with a Toughness of 3. These are all mitigating factors.

    Finally, this new Ork/Cron hybrid list you posted is a bit more balanced. And I do agree that Balance is subjective. It depends on your meta, etc.

    I will go on about the Necron Codex at a later date and refute why it is broken. Its the best book in the game now, and replaced the Grey Knights in regards to Cheese.

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    1. Everyone knows Eldar were gods in 1st ed. and have been paying for it ever since as the red headed step children of the universe. :)

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    2. Yes, 2nd Edition Eldar were indeed beastly. I should know I cut my teeth in the Rogue Trader/2nd Edition Era.

      The Current Codex has its strength's, but they are overshadowed heavily by its weaknesses.

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    3. True, that they (the Eldar) have been paying for it since. I think the Eldar codex was finally balanced when it was released, Yeah there are some crazy cool combos in it that make me take a step back, but the book has lots of counterpoints to balance it, probably too many. Saddly, as we all know, too many of the books that followed it were anything but balanced, and they further magnify the Eldar's weaknesses.

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  6. My bad, I meant solidify why the Necron Codex is broken, not refute.

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    1. I have tried nearly everything in the book. Some things are broken, but in general, everything is a solid choice. Sure flyer spam is crazy and wratihs and desteoyer lord are tough, but overall as a book, I think few things are actually broken.

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  7. To quote the movie Lucky Number Slevin, or paraphase due to non perfect memory, here is something that applies to you edwin. "When someone first calls you a horse you punch him in the mouth. The second time someone calls you a horse you walk away. But the third time someone calls you a horse its time to go shopping for a saddle" and another poorly done edition of to turn a phrase, if it shoots unstoppable beams of death like a necron, has so many different ways to do whatever it wants like a necron, gets back up from being dead like a necron; it is broke and possibly a necron.

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    1. As for the unstoppable beams of death, the death ray is a little nuts, but it really kind of sucks. I have never seen them perform to the craziness that I hear of on the internet. If you are talking about gauss, always been a mechanic and it is incredibly random. As for many different ways to do whatever I want with them, I have never found a good way to bruise my way through a game unless I spend a godly amount of points on a unit. As for get back up from the dead, unless I buy res orbs for everyone, I only get about 4-5 guys back a game tops. I don't care if people think necrons are broken. I care that people would rather write them off as broken rather than play a single game with them. I played against against a storm lord scarab list which at the time was the cheesiest of the cheese. It was Cron Air of its time. I stomped it into the ground with my angry earth necron list (it was a 5th edition game). It is a tough book to fight, but skill and tactics beat net based cheese every time.

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  8. Have you ever played in Ard Boys? Skill and tactics do not always out do Net Based Cheese and or Bad Dice. Good tactics can always be outdone by net based cheese.
    What makes the Necron book broken in places is the points cost for some of the most powerful units in a game.

    Arm your Power Weapon Weilding Lord with Mindshackle Scarabs?.. even Abbadon and Ghazgull will drop to that.

    What, you have arguably one of the cheapest/most effective flyers in the game? and your troop component that transports inside does not die when you get shot down? or does not suffer any of the Str 10 Wounds that every other army has to deal with when they get shot down... and All for 120-130 points? Say it isnt so.

    What your standard trooper carries a Str 4 Gun, Rapid firing which glances even AV 14 on a 6. You mean you havent seen Leman Russes glanced to death by squads of warriors embarked in barges?

    Wait, your main transport is AV13, even in close combat but is also Open Topped so you can fire out of it in full force?

    And I wont even go into the Storm Lord, or the Wraiths.
    Storm Lord in Apocalypse = Brutal.

    For the points cost and what they can do, the Necrons are overpowered. Does that mean they are unbeatable? Nope... are certain things broken, in my opinion yes.

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    1. the thing about the lord I found is they rack up in cost fast. the guy you are talking about os 75 points of 1 wound model. if you charge, have the mind shackle effect go off before challenges and than challenge and stomp into ground with uber character. as for flyer comment, it is starting to get a little silly, but I have never seen the cron air do well. hell, max cron air doesn't even win tournaments from what I see.the troop transports you are talking about are 11 on the back for close combat and are 115 points if I recall putting a full squad at 245 points for 10 guys. sure you can blow up a squadron of russ tanks but your dice gotta be on fire with a ton of sixes and be in rapid fire range. having used the stormlord quite a bit, i can say he is lack luster. better points spent elsewhere. without a destroyer lord, I can't get wraiths to work. the entire necron book has great options, but often I findyou gotta sink points into them to get them great.still solid choices, but not broken in my eyes.

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  9. Stormlord was much better in 5th. This is true, and some of that has to do with the prevalent nature of Night Fight in this version. However, against the storm lord i was losing 1.5 Chimera hulls every turn to turn and a half to the storm lord. Average dice rolls considered.

    Mind Shackle scarabs make every Necron Lord or Personality that can have them nasty. Challenges are a big part of 40K now and are here to stay. Its a good way to nutrealize instant death weapons like Power Fists/Klaws etc. Hammers... what not.

    Put some Deathmarks and or Immortals in those Flyers. Nasty...

    And I never said that a Barge filled with warriors isnt expensive, but you have to measure damage output to cost ratio. And a full barge with warriors and a broadside can spit out alot of firepower.

    Between those and the skimmer sweep attack I have gotten to the point where If I am even sniffing a Necron list I refuse to bring along a Russ hull. Its just not worth it.

    Everyone's back is 10 or 11 for Close Combat. Hell that is the only reliable way to drop a barge like that. Oh and I forgot to mention, they have 4 Hull Points. They are as tough as a land raider, at half the cost.

    Maybe your judgement is clouded by the Crons shiny-ness or something, but they are seriously challenging to deal with. You need a lot of breaks to beat them. I have done it a lot against my common opponent with my Guard Army. but that is typically in Objective missions. Or when we draw big guns never tire.

    I have only managed to beat the Crons once with my Orks. Thats a whole different ball game there.

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    1. You must have fielded a bunch of chimera for it to be that effective. to even hit 1.5 chimera, you have to field 9 of them.

      I have only found one way to deal with mind shackle scarabs. You have to charge the necron unit. As the active player, you decided which happens first between scarabs and challenges. You have scarabs happen, than challenge and monkey stomp the guy with them for his troubles.

      The Deathmarks in a flyer can be nasty, but for every unit of flyers you take, that is boots on the ground that you aren't gonna have. Flyers hurt, but the spammy flyer lists suffered from not enough damage in the 3-4 turns they were on the board to really make it count.

      Look at the statistics of how much hurt those barges put out. 15 shots outside of 12 inches sees about 10 hit sees maybe two six's. Thats 2 hull points if you aren't in cover. Sure, you could have 4 six's come up and wreck that shinny land raider, but I have had far more instances where nothing happens than wrecking a vehicle in a single go.

      the skimmer sweep attacks are severely nerfed in this edition since you can only sweep in the movement phase.You have to fly over a target 12 inches away. Also, the Catacomb Command Barge suffers from the chariot rules so much that I haven't seen one since 6th launched. It doesn't lock people in combat. It allows the people who can seriously hurt the lord to swing at him and those who have a good chance of hurting the barge can swing at the barge. Because it doesn't lock in combat, you can simple circle around behind the barge and shoot rear armor and proabably wreck the barge before charging the overlord who comes out of it.

      I have had 1 of my arks hull point out in all of sixth edition. They usually don't survive the first penning hit. Open topped is a two way street and anything that is gonna get through their quantum shielding is gonna be ap 2 or 1. Worse yet, once their shielding is down, they die rediculously fast because all that ineffective fire against av 13 is probably gonna work against av 11.

      It kind of sounds like you are running against the counter of your IG list. Necrons dominate vehicles. Everything a necron player can field will hurt vehicles. If you lose 1.5 chimera a turn to storm lord, than you probably field a butt ton of vehicles against a power AT army. I am no saying necrons aren't a struggle to deal with, but that is because there aren't really that many bad choices in the necron codex. They are all strong choices. This causes people to spam options which can get really annoying. I think the problem is that on fact more than the book itself.

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