Wednesday, August 22, 2012

Forge world and me: an adventure into the unknown.


A needed talk
      So today, I want to talk about something that seems like a hot topic recently. I want to talk about the inclusion of forge world into the main stream elements of the game. They expand the elements available to everyone while allowing people to make more diversified choices instead of the numbers games that we see happen with the "Internet lists".  It also brings into the play several other lists that we wouldn't see. On top of all of this, it brings flyers and anti air things. It updates quite a few of the armies that suffer from their age. The potential of certain aspects of anything forge world is an interesting prospect that I want to talk about.  I also want to talk about the fears and things that scare people from my perspective as well as some friendly opinions from others I know. 

star trek reference
I ended up playing against forge world for the first time. (or so I thought) I brought my rock paper list against regular old space marines. It was a good game, but I was surprised with something. I find out that my opponent was bringing forge world. He warned me about a Mortis dreadnaught, but since it eats air craft for breakfast, I was actually curious to see what it would do so I didn't mind. He also decided to bring a Contemptor dreadnaught. Having never faced either and I was curious more than anything. I didn't make any objections. I than let them both live most of the game. My anti tank is enough to ensure that by turn 2, 4-6 vehicles are dead almost without exception so the two dreads could have died before they could really do anything of note. what I came to find was that the dreads didn't do a thing really that something equal to their points in the core set of the game couldn't do better short of one rare thing with the Mortis (sky firing flyers) . The Contempter was a joke. Looked amazing, but truly underperformed. If anything, it felt like they were a fun choice, but they couldn't deal with general things well. If they didn't find their niche of targets, you didn't get a good return from them.If they did find their niche target, pray they don't die (which seems to be happening faster now) before they reach their target. To make it worse, I find out that the dreads that he was bringing were really expensive. Neither dread made their points back. The closest one was the Contemptor dread killed a warrior squad. This task wasn't done by some awesome thing. He had two wrist mounted heavy flamers and got close. It wasn't anything magical. There was a moment of surprise in the game. when I finally did decide to kill them, the 5+ inv saves that the dreads had (which they pay a lot for) slowed their deaths. The same effect could have happened if you set each dread behind a knee high wall. 
Fear is the mind killer.

A bunch of people seem scared of forge world. A bunch of people view it as a pay to win thing because of the price of several forge world elements. One thing that scares people is issue of balance in forge world. Forge world hasn't been known for their incredible balance. Somethings costs are no where near they should be. While these are rare, they exist. Every time I hear this argument, I think of something in the core of 40k that is just as bad or if not worse. All I hear about is how cheap Vendetta/Valkyries are compared to everything. It is because of things like this that I think this fear is just something to add onto the fire that is the forge world debate. It doesn't offer much to either side, but it is still a valid point. The other side of the balance issue is that some units coffer extreme abilities. A Lucius pattern drop pod allows dreadnaughts to assault once you drop in. That is really intimidating for a first time. That kills almost any vehicle. After I got over that, I started thinking more. What does the same job for cheaper? 5 wolf guard in a drop pod with combi melta.No forge world and it yields better results. Once something doesn't surprise you, you really begin to fear it much less. The availibility of the rules hurts people often. People don't  have ready access to the rules. Few people have all the codex so this isn't much of an issue. You need the rules to play the model so that often will be the first time people see the actual rules. As long as you go over it with your opponent before you play, this wont be too bad. After all, you don't want to win a game because someone just doesn't know. Another fear people have is flyers in general. There is a quote from a movie that I love to use when something like this comes up. "Everyone can be super! and when everyone is super, no one will be"-syndrome. The point is, while marines and family get most of the loving, everyone gets a flyer of some sort or another and some sort of anti air. It truly is a win win for everyone. 
Additional opinions required
 I feel that while I have some opinion of all things forge world, I don't have enough experience to truly express a great opinion of the subject. It is this idea that has caused me to ask some of the more experience players I know about the subject. Here is what my friend the fluff bunny said. 

Corey from dlwdg.blogspot.com: I've used the Defenders of Vraks list so many times that I often forget to use the IG's orders when running them as actual IG. And invariably forget till the last minute that my lascannon teams in the Vraks list aren't troops choices & so can't hold whatever objective that they're invariably sitting on/by. Most people generally can't tell the difference between the Vraks & IG lists, so they don't often notice that I'm using a FW army even if I told them beforehand (which I always do).

The IG Sabers are another favorite (and the new artillery rules in 6th will make them even better). One by itself was just amusing to me. Two and they became effective infantry killers (easy to think of them as: 12, 36" ranged, twin-linked bolter shots & now with skyfire!), and I generally get groans/complaints/dirty looks/flipped off when I mention I have a 3rd one one yet to assemble to complete the battery. 

Then there's the IG Cyclops (a.k.a.: '25 points of amusement' &  the 'Anti-Joel Device' after it blew up several of his ork bikers). When spotted 'hey. what's that little tank over there? ' is often spoken (an exact quote from Joel) and it becomes a very high priority target. Generally I have to try & hide it when deploying, and keep it hidden till the enemy gets close & them rush out to blow up amidst the enemy before getting shot to pieces. 

The Grot Spee (Grot Mega Tank) just suffers from the me rarely playing Orks because every other army is Space Wolves, and fearless saves were fucking stupid (and finally GW figured that out!). In game terms its fairly mediocre, however from an aesthetic point of view (amusing when you think of it) it is by far the best looking model in my entire collection! Just love that model!

So I do use them, however barring the mega tank, none really stand out of the crowd until you look closely at the individual minis.

The next opinion is from a friend of mine who is a hobby person.  He paints and builds things incredibly well and he is the guy who usually helps put my vehicles together (or often puts them together completely). He is the person who likes the fluff, but puts aspects of the hobby over game play aspects. This is just the basic idea of the conversation that we had, but you will get the idea.

 Bob from lesserofallevils.blogspot.com: The idea of forge world being surprised on me is something I don't like.  There are a few problems with things from forge world. I have people stick to the "Ask permission" in order to use most forge world stuff. If people are willing to let me know what is coming and I can see the rules, I don't really have a problem. Even in a tournament setting, as long as I know what I am facing, I am usually fine with it. Hell, I may even buy something forge world of my own to bring. Expand my collection with something I can use more then when I just ask my opponent for OK.

     So I want to hear from other people. This is a community topic. I feel that forge world is slowly becoming an accepted and needed part of the game. It expands many elements that are often found lacking in many of the armies. While some things are ridiculous, there will be more benefit to allowing forge world than not. You can have fluffier lists, more hobby designed lists. It is an expansion for our already magnificent hobby. Sure people will abuse it, but with the inclusion of forge world, I think we will see that while you can abuse it, the answers for it are often available in forge world itself.

3 comments:

  1. Simple bring the FW rule book to share and remember that GW doesn't make balanced rules so why expect FW to do any different. Yay for tasty resin that annoys Joel.

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  2. "Here is what my friend the fluff bunny said."

    BEAMS with pride for being recognized for what I am!

    :-D

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  3. Like Madival said I have no problem with using Forge World as long as people have the correct rules for whatever they are using and ask if it is cool to use the rules and models. I am all about casual gaming with the emphasis being on fun rather than competition so 9.99 times out of 10 I would love to see the stuff used. My only concern is if a person was to drop down some Titan or super heavy and act like it is business as usual. I would love to play some of the campaign books they have out like the Badab War or The Siege of Vraks. I will more than likely end up ordering the Horus Heresy books. I view the Forge World products as something players bring out as a special event rather than what you use on a regular basis.

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